<div dir="ltr">Hi Daniel,<div><br></div><div>I do agree that the government and geographic location are different, but I also want to simplify maintenance of terms. And I think that LOC doesn't preclude its government/geographic term from being a creator as it conceives of it as such due to its conflation of government and its jurisdiction. So in practice, do you have an agent that points to the LOC geographic term (our prefered source is VIAF, but they follow the same conventions in terms of categorizing governments) if you want that term to be a creator? You just update both records if there is any correction to the term? We have thousands upon thousands of names to manage, so I want to cut down on any fat, though I suppose that is a solution.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Olivia</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 10:18 AM Daniel Michelson <<a href="mailto:dmichelson@smith.edu">dmichelson@smith.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi All,</div><div><br></div><div>I certainly agree with Kate that the fundamental problem is the conflation by LC of the governing body with the location.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd also argue that ArchivesSpace is behaving correctly here. A geographic location cannot create, assemble, accumulate, or maintain and use the materials being described (<a href="https://saa-ts-dacs.github.io/dacs/06_part_I/03_chapter_02/06_name_of_creators.html" target="_blank">DACS 2.6</a>), therefore it should not be considered a creating agent. Distinguishing between the government entity and the location may inconvenience a researcher looking for information on Austin as a location, but it is very helpful to a researcher looking for information about Austin's government.</div><div><br></div><div>Some of the downsides may be ameliorated with the options in the new agents module, but even with the current system, you can at least have both records point to the same LC authority record.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div><br></div><div>Dan<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 10:19 AM Olivia S Solis <<a href="mailto:livsolis@utexas.edu" target="_blank">livsolis@utexas.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Kate,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for your reply! So yes, I have thought about creating both a separate agent record just for e.g. Austin just so catalogers would be able to add the creator of Austin because, as all users in this group know, only agents can be creators in ASpace. I don't like this for many reasons:</div><div><br></div><div>It would violate cataloging standards.</div><div><ul><li>Every authority source I have ever seen (<a href="http://viaf.org/viaf/157089669" target="_blank">VIAF</a>, <a href="https://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n79007290.html" target="_blank">LNCAF</a>, <a href="http://fast.oclc.org/searchfast/?&limit=keywords&facet=all&query=Texas--Austin&sort=usage+desc&start=0#&single=fst01204313&fullview=simple&sep=click" target="_blank">FAST</a>, ...) considers Austin and its government a geographic term.</li><li>This is consistent with more elaborative cataloging standards that I have read, e.g. RDA which I quoted in my first email. I'm not a trained cataloger though, so if someone would like to correct me on ways of establishing a government of a geographic area as a corporate term in an authority list, please enlighten me.</li></ul>It would wreak havoc on our taxonomy management.</div><div><ul><li>This is particular to our institution, but I am the only one who enters subject/agent terms for our organization. This to ensure more consistent, standards-based use of terms, and so that we do not have e.g ten different ways of entering Hillary Clinton. If Austin changes its name to Keep Austin Weird, I only want to change it in one place, not both the agent and the subject record.</li></ul>It would create a clickable wild west.</div><div><ul><li>I'm not sure how much all staff and researchers make the distinction between Austin the government and Austin a geographic location.</li><li>So if someone is browsing around in the system and they want to get everything related to Austin, they might click on Austin the creator/agent, but miss out on all the resources that use the subject term. Or vice versa. Highly unsatisfying retrieval.</li></ul>I am using Austin as the example, but my question can apply to any government/geographic level (county, state, etc). </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div>Olivia</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 8:36 AM Bowers, Kate A. <<a href="mailto:kate_bowers@harvard.edu" target="_blank">kate_bowers@harvard.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Can you explain more about "</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:rgb(32,31,30)">two Austins, one agent and one geographic subject, as it would
violate cataloging standards, wreak havoc on our taxonomy management, and create a clickable wild west in ASpace."</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:rgb(32,31,30)"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">I find the LCSH/LCNAF practice of conflating a governing corporate body with a geographic area inherently illogical. Instead of using the chosen name for the government, as an example “City
of Boston” they use the same text as the geographical name. We’d never do this to other corporate bodies.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Background, for the non-LCSH/LCNAF folk: LOC has a single geographical authority record and uses the same text for the governing body and the geographic area, and just codes it
differently in the MARC resource records if the usage is as a corporate body “creator” field instead of a “subject” field. Technically, AS cannot do this.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Kate<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div id="gmail-m_-6566353489453195707gmail-m_-8412088543294314939gmail-m_7589250524547901784Signature">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Kate Bowers</span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Collections Services Archivist for Metadata, Systems, and Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Harvard University Archives<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:kate_bowers@harvard.edu" target="_blank">kate_bowers@harvard.edu</a><a href="mailto:megan_sniffin-marinoff@harvard.edu" target="_blank"><br>
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">voice: (617) 998-5238<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">fax: (617) 495-8011<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">web: <a href="http://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:hul.eresource:archives" target="_blank">http://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:hul.eresource:archives</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Twitter: @k8_bowers</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> <a href="mailto:archivesspace_users_group-bounces@lyralists.lyrasis.org" target="_blank">archivesspace_users_group-bounces@lyralists.lyrasis.org</a> <<a href="mailto:archivesspace_users_group-bounces@lyralists.lyrasis.org" target="_blank">archivesspace_users_group-bounces@lyralists.lyrasis.org</a>>
on behalf of Olivia S Solis <<a href="mailto:livsolis@utexas.edu" target="_blank">livsolis@utexas.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 24, 2021 6:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Archivesspace Users Group <<a href="mailto:archivesspace_users_group@lyralists.lyrasis.org" target="_blank">archivesspace_users_group@lyralists.lyrasis.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Archivesspace_Users_Group] Geographic creators</span> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am wondering how some of you all may have handled documenting the creators of collections in ArchivesSpace when the creator is a geographic location, as in e.g. Austin (Tex.) — meaning its government. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Some the standards I am looking at:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">RDA<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In its chapter on places, "The names of places are commonly used in the following ways: as the names of governments and communities that are not governments."
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Chapter on corporate bodies: "The conventional name of a government is the name of the area over which the government exercises jurisdiction" and then it refers you to the chapter on places.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">DACS<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Defines the creator as "identifies the corporate bodies, persons, and families associated with the creation, assembly, accumulation..."<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Our particular conundrum is that we export and publish EAD to a consortium that is going to begin imposing mandatory creators, and many of ours are technically geographic. However, perhaps some of you have also grappled with this hybrid
geographic/corporate sense of a place term. Maybe some of you would also like to identify a creator when it is a government that presides over a geographic area because you would like Austin to be a nice clickable, identifiable creator
<i>and</i> geographic subject.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A dodge I have tried to recommend to processors is to identify the creator as the specific agency of the term that may have created the collection, e.g. Austin (Tex.). City Council. But sometimes we don't know the division that created
the records and sometimes the broader city of Austin is really the creator. I certainly don't want to create two Austins, one agent and one geographic subject, as it would violate cataloging standards, wreak havoc on our taxonomy management, and create a clickable
wild west in ASpace.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Apologies if there is an obvious solution to this that I do not know about.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<br>
Olivia<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">Olivia Solis, MSIS</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">Metadata Coordinator</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">Dolph Briscoe Center for American History</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">The University of Texas at Austin</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">2300 Red River St. Stop D1100</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">Austin TX, 78712-1426</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:black">(512) 232-8013</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:rgb(136,136,136)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Olivia Solis, MSIS</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Metadata Coordinator</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Dolph Briscoe Center for American History</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">The University of Texas at Austin</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">2300 Red River St. Stop D1100</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Austin TX, 78712-1426</font></div><div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8px">(512) 232-8013</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Dan Michelson</div><div>Project Manager Archivist<br></div><div>Smith College Special Collections</div><div><br></div><div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial;white-space:pre-wrap">Due to COVID-19, Special Collections is offering limited, remote reference and digitization services and ongoing consultations for faculty, students, and other researchers. Smith course support is our primary responsibility at this time. All other requests and inquiries will be responded to as we are able. </span></div><span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.44;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span><br><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34,34,34);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">For information about Smith College’s response to Covid-19, please visit the </span><a href="http://bit.ly/SCLcovid-19" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(17,85,204);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Smith College Libraries</span></a><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34,34,34);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> and </span><a href="https://www.smith.edu/student-life/health-wellness/coronavirus" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(17,85,204);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Smith College</span></a><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34,34,34);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> websites. For information about library services during this time, information is available on our website.</span></span></p></span><font size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><span style="font-family:"Playfair Display",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Olivia Solis, MSIS</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Metadata Coordinator</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Dolph Briscoe Center for American History</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">The University of Texas at Austin</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">2300 Red River St. Stop D1100</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font color="#000000">Austin TX, 78712-1426</font></div><div style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8px">(512) 232-8013</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>